Tren Griffin has studied the most successful people on Earth and distilled their wisdom into a new book. I love reading his blog posts and his commitment to concise communication.
Tren Griffin is an executive at Microsoft. Before joining Microsoft, Tren was a partner at the private equity firm Eagle River which makes investments telecommunications businesses and startups. He previously worked as a consultant in Australia and Korea. He writes a weekly blog and has published 7 books. Tren’s Challenge; Study Charlie Munger and be a learning machine. Any year that you don’t reject a view you held, is a wasted year. Tren’s Book A Dozen Lessons for Entrepreneurs by Tren Griffin Connect with Tren Website If you liked this interview, check out previous episodes with Wealthfront founder Andy Rachleff and Li Jiang, and angel investor and venture capitalist. Subscribe on iTunes | Stitcher | Overcast | PodBay
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Ed Latimore is a man of diverse talents and interests. When he is not training for a fight or challenging your sensibilities on Twitter, he is thinking deeply about culture and philosophy.
Latimore is also a patriot, having served as a radio technician specialist in the Pennsylvania Army National Guard and an AmeriCorps volunteer. He is currently working to complete a degree in Physics and Electrical Engineering at Duquesne University. When he is not strengthening his body for boxing, Latimore exercises his mind to stay sharp inside the ring by playing chess. Additionally, he is also a prolific writer having self-published several books and blogs regularly. Ed’s Challenge; Do something you’re afraid of.
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Not Caring What Other People Think Is A Superpower: Insights From a Heavyweight Boxer by Ed Latimore Never miss one of our best episodes by subscribing to the newsletter.
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Website If you liked this interview, check out episode 66 with Zak Slayback where we discuss. Subscribe on iTunes | Stitcher | Overcast | PodBay
Ed Latimore
Aaron Watson: I actually had like a really well-written question to kick things off, but our conversation before we started actually kind of got my wheels spinning in another direction. Which is teaching on a subjective topic like English. You do some tutoring and it's often in hard science and maths, but the real way, I mean, personally that I've found to improve my writing, improve my speaking has been just kind of self-directed reading more or less. You do a lot of writing, some, some really good stuff that we're going to link to in the show notes so people can check out. But I'm curious, given you have this interest in hard science or studying physics, how you've gone about cultivating your writing skills and how you improve that process. Ed Latimore: You know, it's funny. One of, I don't know if it's our common link, but definitely a common link between me and Zach is a woman named Beth Phillips and she asks a similar question and he goes, "I'm really surprised that you're writing because you're a hard science person in generally speaking, those don't overlap." Which I wasn't aware of because maybe it's the other sciences, but physics to discuss it properly, to answer questions and to teach slash learn involves a lot of precise language. Like we don't think about the difference between speed and velocity, but you better believe when it comes to a physical problem, even though they measure the same thing, one has the direction component, the other simply a scaler. So are them just using that as an example, but I'm using that as, as an example, to make the point that to describe the water around you in a way that other people can, you have to come up with a language and you have to learn that language. And then you have to communicate clearly in that language. And on top of that, and this was, I really hated lab science for a long time. In fact, it was probably one of the things that kept me from pursuing my degree that I was like, man, I really just don't want to do these labs. Like, can I take a test? But one of the benefits of the lab is you get to explain your process for a scientific event. A thing that had an objective outcome that you could measure. That you, more or less, knew it was going to happen. You get to talk through and describe what went on. So another person can look at it. The whole goal of any lab is for a person to pick it up, look at it and go, I will do this experiment the way you wrote it. And that requires communication. So I'm in a lot of ways to do well in science. And even in mathematics, writing proofs, for example, you need to have a very strong, not so much vocabulary, but you need to be able to put things together in a way that communicates an idea clearly. If you cannot do that, you will not succeed in science or life. And that's all it really is, is taking your thoughts, having a point that you want to make with those thoughts, organizing them in a way that people go, "I see what you're saying. I may or may not disagree." But if a person can't come away with your argument, or at least the, you know, the crux are the, just of your argument and this by, by reading and writing, then you haven't organized your thoughts well enough. So that is where that comes from. The science training forced you to be a good writer. And in general, I like, just one, I'm always writing. It's very natural for me to think. Okay. Here's the point I want to make. Here's the idea I want to express. Here's what I want to get across. Let me put this clearly for people to read and understand. Aaron Watson: Gotcha. You, you mentioned not liking the labs and you kind of use the past tense is it sounds like that's changed or just in general, where did that interest start to stir and become something that you deemed worthy of study? Ed Latimore: When I, when I became a physics student. Because my, like my background briefly to make, you know, give this answer some context is. I went to school originally, like everyone outside of the time was supposed to, right out of high school. Wasn't ready, dropped out to a long time before I went back. Finally went back. When I originally went back, I thought I was going to go from mathematics. And then some training in the military, I was like, oh, I'm going to go for electrical engineering. And then I took the first physics class you have to take for, for all engineer - all engineers have to take two sequences of physics and I'm like, no, this is what I want to do. Right. And the thing that drew me to it. I remember the day, clearly we were doing a lab. There we go. We're doing a lab about projectile motion and using the kinematic equations to predict where a projectile would land. And when the projectile landed exactly where my formula set at what I was like, wow, I just use magic. This is what I want to study. So. What - what change really for me, and maybe it was a maturity thing, or maybe it was finally like seeing a real example of something that like I could use is seeing that you can't learn by a book. I mean, you can, you can put facts, you can put facts in your head, by a book, but as not to do a thing, can you learn a thing. And that was my first experience, really going, I really get how this works, but I get it because I seen it work. And I was, I linked the equations and the light bulb went off and I was like, "I don't mind labs at all." Now I look forward to them because this will help me understand and from that point on in the chemistries and the physics labs, I really looked forward to doing the lab work because it helped me understand things. Aaron Watson: I see. With making that type of decision, or just in general, the writing that you do, you, you talked about, you know, being able to use this precise language and really select the right, the right words and communicate that effectively. What I think, maybe doesn't always get acknowledged. It goes unsaid with that and something, I don't know if you take this for granted or not, is self-confidence. The, the willingness to put your name next to an idea, or to really put your viewpoint out there? I'm I'm, going to speculate here for a second and you can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that interlude between the first time you were in school and the second time, you were doing boxing and you were serving in the military. I associate both of those experiences with confidence building primarily, especially for men in a security around being able to handle yourself. Ed Latimore: All right. Aaron Watson: In a wide variety of high stress situations. How much of the confidence that you bring to your writing and other endeavors do you attribute to those experiences? Ed Latimore: You said something really, really key. High stress environments. I always tell people, right. They, they ask there's. I don't know if it's an urban legend. There's some truth to it. I guess. That a boxer can't have a fight with a regular person on the street cause they would kill him and then be charged with assault, with a deadly. Who knows? I don't know if that's true or not. What I do know is that the one advantage you really have? I mean, it's not, not punching is not being in better shape than we're talking about street fights. The one advantage you really have is the ability to manage your adrenaline and get a thing done under duress. I learned that. In boxing and I had been boxing before I joined the military. So it made getting through training even easier. Like I remember I had a direct plan. I'm like, I'm on a list and I know exactly what I'm going to get out from basic training. I'm going to start class. And everything was going fine until week four basic training. When we had qualification for shooting. I am an awful, I'm not an awful shot, but I needed four tries to pass. You're only supposed to get three, right. But I got a fourth one cause we had a few really good shots and it was leftover ammo and time. And being able to stay calm and not panic in the face of that stressful situation allowed me to not get recycled. Because when you get recycled, they, they say you can't shoot. Time to start basic training all over again. A sovereign one, the basic turning from the beginning that throws my whole timeline off. So where does that tie into writing. At some point, when you put your name on things, when you put what you think, what you feel, how you see the water out there. It doesn't matter how well you articulate it, how well you explain it, how much logic, reasoning, or even what kind of person you are, someone will disagree. And a lot of people want to disagree, really. When you think about it, even if only 1% of the people read it who have 1% of a, of your following disagrees, for me, I mean, that's 150 people, right? That's that's not us and that's, and then they're going to share it and talk about how they don't like it. And then it's going to, it's going to grow and you're going to get a lot of feedback and a lot of hate that doesn't - that a lot of people aren't ready for, aren't interested in. And even though it's only digital, a person can tell the difference between that- that's the same way that the simulations where people would talk about, oh, it's just digital. Right. You should realize that intellectually. Emotionally, your body still kind of responds to the same. And. Once you can manage your, your stress under a situation of duress in reality. We can port that skill to just the, the horrible abuse. You get sometimes from people who don't like your writing at all, what you tweet or don't like a picture or whatever. Yeah, you'll be fine, but that's where I take that from that I wouldn't even call it confidence. Cause a lot of, I mean, not a lot, most times I really do finish a piece of writing. I go, all right, well, I edited it. I feel good about the argument, but there is no way people are gonna dig this. And you know, and they do some don't. The point is still going through with it. I'm not going through with the thinking that I'm going to make it, any more than I enter a fight, and I think I'm going to come out of this unscathed. I just know that I've worked on controlling my stress and keeping my mind cool and collected so I can get through and solve the problem or deal with the abuse and come out on the other side in a position to learn from it. Aaron Watson: When was the first time you really felt like you started to have a handle on that management of your adrenaline reactions? Was it, I mean, you've had 14 fights now is it? I'm sure it wasn't the first one. Ed Latimore: 15 profiles plus in the amateurs? My answer is what I have 50 something fights, maybe 50, 60, a few MMA fights. Well, two MMA fights and some jujitsu matches. So, but I remember very clearly the first time I was like, "huh. I behave differently in distress." I was in a movie, and I cannot remember the movie and I cannot remember where I was with it, but this is when I remember. And it was a one of those surprise BOO scenes and, and I just sat there and everyone else jumped and it's not, it's not like I was ready for it. I just went. And that's when I realized somebody described this once. And I can't remember. I know it was a fighter. He described it as turning the noise down because the noise and the stress of a fight is so high and so loud, their regular, everyday normal stuff is his kind of muted in a relative to what you experienced on a daily basis, training, sparring and fighting. And, and I remember that everyone was jumping around. I went, I was like, huh. Wow. There's that? So some of our ability to be startled is ruined and it's not ruined. I mean, I can still be startled, but, but it takes significantly more. And it allows me to think. Way more calmly under annoying situation. And I don't remember any specific time for this, but a person may be says or does something that untrained me. I can't speak for every other human, but untrained me perhaps has a reaction to escalate the situation, trained me hears it, and kind of steps outside of himself and looks at it and goes, "Okay. Well he said this, he thought this, well, we can do this and this will go this way. Or we can go to this and this. Okay. This way we want a more favorable outcome. Plus, we got tickets to a movie later. We're just going to ignore this." I do remember this, this incident, this clearly wasn't the first one, but, but this, this whole thought process, I'll never forget. It was, I think it was last summer. Near the end. I was going into Lowe's or Best Buy. I was in The Waterfront and I walked by some, some black kid with his girl and he went - and the girl was dressed kind of scandalously and I guess he thought I was looking, maybe I was maybe I wasn't. And he responded, "Yo the -- f*** you looking at!" And I thought about it. I was like, "Okay, I'm a lot bigger than this guy. But if he's crazy enough to say that to me, he might have a gun," and it really just felt like it slowed down in time for me. And what do I get really, if I respond to him? Well, you know, I can say I did this and I maybe talk about it on social media, but if he has a gun, it doesn't matter because I'm probably going to get shot. Okay. We'll just let this one slide. I just walked on and that's what it's like. It's like everything slowed and then it just, it just kept going. All right after, but then that's how I respond to a lot of of duress or stressful situations. Aaron Watson: I think that a lot of people desire that they want that coolness, but maybe there, so there's obviously one area where there's not even a self-awareness of, I'm a short fuse I just blow. Some, some people don't even reach that point, but I feel like there's an, I actually quite frankly think I might be a little bit in that area where I, I can get temporary. I can get riled up, even though I know after the fact, like why, why did that, why did I let that get so under my skin. So let's say hypothetically, I don't, I don't think I'm going to go into boxing, or maybe necessarily serve in the military. What other avenues can people pursue to maybe better handle their emotions or kind of find that comparability to turn the noise down? Ed Latimore: Well, right now, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Or rather anything specific. What I can say are a list of criteria. Okay. I just thought of one or two, right. A list of criteria that it should meet if you want to learn to deal with. Your emotions that you got to remember some, all that your emotions, they are not, it's not the same realm of a rational thought. Rational thought is deliberate. And a lot of cases proactive you plan for the future, right? This is why we have crimes of passion as a thing, because a person is reactive to the moment with their emotions. So what you want to do, you're not going to be able to change how that works. Anyone who says they can, they're lying to you. What you can do is use your ability to, to proactively plan and put yourself in moderately stressful situations intentionally. You know, this is, this is exactly how, how vaccines and the whole inoculation process works. And public speaking for example is a great way to do this. You think deliberately, I'm going to put myself in this uncomfortable situation. And even if the audience is polite, you're going to, you're creating most of the stress in your mind. So you're going to be learning to deal with it, man, is these little subtle things you never even thought about that contribute to why your emotions might be off the handle. For, for example, you know, a lot of the slight that people feel like they're responding to is nothing more than how they hear a thing filtered through their own insecure voice. Right? So if you can learn how to listen to that voice and go, "We're in charge here and not you," you gain a level. And a great way to gain that level is public speaking. Right? Another thing you have to be able to do is you have to, you got to kind of take a detached look at things. I don't want to say you shouldn't care that you'll die or get hurt, but at the same time, you have to realize that ultimately that's the end result. I mean, one day we are going to be none of our memories. And if you remember that, and you can carry that with you more often than not kind of put it closer to your conscious thought process, and your subconscious driving over your, over your actions, right? Then you're, then you're going to be a little more detached from the moment. And I think a great way to do that is any kind of meditation. Anything that makes you sit and still your mind, separate from the things going around, you makes you appreciate your, your, the finiteness of your body, right? Because as long as you're always being distracted and pulled in different directions by life, you never really get a chance to sit and think about yourself. And that's why I say sicknesses is really good for you. Sometimes it's like an old, like an old joke or a sickness it great for you. Cause it forces you to stop moving. Force you to stop force you to sit and contemplate and think about your body and how weak it really is. A lot of people don't do that. And then they're shocked when they're sick and they're like, oh, I can't do a thing. Well, obviously you can't, but if you can put yourself in that position, then you realize the frailty of your mind, the frailty of your body, or the very least you realize that you can step away from everything going on and listen to it. So those are the, those are the two specific things I thought of public speaking and meditation and the criteria you can think of anything else to fit those criteria that force you to encounter your inner voice, force you to listen to yourself, forces you to think and plan - roller coasters are great! Actually, I just thought about that. Aaron Watson: I hate roller coasters. Ed Latimore: You know, I, it's funny, man. I found really the perfect person for me. Like, I mean, I'm sure there's like other people out there who I would work just as well with, but I don't have time to find them and I don't want to live like I'm with their 50 years, I got like maybe 10 where I look like this thing ain't going to happen again. And it's so funny because we're very similar up here about how we approach things in this deliberate, emotionally controlled type of response to life. And I don't mind roller coasters. I'm not like a roller coaster junkie, but I don't mind them. That's the, she's one in blood. She was, she won't touch anything. Risk, risk taking-ish. I'm gonna cut. Cause I won't either. I argue with you. You're not gonna see me bungee jumping or no on the back of the motorcycles. Shy diving. High hang-gliding. I might zip line. I'm still not sure about it. I haven't heard anything crazy going on with zip lines and I can see how it works. It's not that very, there are fewer elements of chance in a zip line then I feel like there are in a sky dive. Maybe I'm wrong, but hey, people fear flying. So, so who knows, but back that you hate roller coasters, right? That's almost certainly why. But you can use that to your advantage. You can go. Okay. I really don't like this feeling. What don't you like about it? Do you not like the feeling, do you not like, are you anxious about the fact that you might die? Who knows, but either way you get to encounter something very uncomfortable and deliberately put yourself there. You actually get to do one better, depending on when you go. You get to be confronted with the dread by standing in line, because I find it, you know, how I got up over my favorite roller coasters. I remember this clearly, oddly enough, I was six at Geauga Lake and there was a roller coaster that went, did the whole, like 360 loop. And before then I remember when I was a kid, I was afraid of them, but there was no line for this roller coaster. So I didn't have a chance to wait and let my fear bail me out. I just went. Hopped on. Only one of us going up the thing that I was like, "Oh my goodness, what did I get myself into?" And I remember this clearly when I was only six, a lot of people there in the line for the thing. And we're like, huh? And then as the line moves along next to the coast, you could see it going up and you hear people yelling at you like, honey, your imagination starts going, "Wow. This thing ain't broke down all summer or the summer before that, but why just going to go off the tracks when I get on. I just know it." So you really get a chance to play with that, that fear element, how your mind immediately goes through worst case scenario and you get to kind of control it and bring it back. Aaron Watson: I guess, some of my insecurity or doubt. It's not always like the design, like the physics, the intellectual side of, you know, this is well built and tested and they have all these safety precautions in place. Mine is more in the mind of like human error at the end of the day. There's a human operating this machine or I'm sure you heard about that - Ed Latimore: And a human that is not well-paid either. So - Aaron Watson: Exactly. It's not some, you know, top flight engineer or something. It's some kid work in their summer job. And then there's also the one, I don't know if you heard about the, the person who like lost their hats, they climbed over like three different fences. And then someone came by and like kicked them in the head. And, you know, I guess I feel bad for the person who not really like following the person went and got their hat. That's just kind of Darwin's rules taking care of themselves, but the person who like broke their leg because some idiot went after that. Like, I want to be that person. Ed Latimore: There was a video, there was a story floating around. Some, some guy at Cedar Point, I mean, it was flown around cause it happened. It's not like it was a myth. It was, it was trying to take a selfie and went over the edge. You know, the Darwinism man, now you got to go chase Darwinism. Before, that's how easy life is before Darwinism found you. Now, now, now you got to go find it. And people, people were still, you know, Hey. Aaron Watson: So I think that's why people get so into the bungee jumping and all this other stuff. It's it's people are bored. They don't have that sense of like, I have to figure out a way to survive. So they're going in and seeking it out because everything's so easy. Ed Latimore: Man, forget that. Everything is not, and maybe that's like part of my upbringing. I don't know, but my girl was raised differently and I'd imagine you're raised differently than me. And we got the same kind of mentality about this. But at least for me, Life is already scary enough, man. Like I grew up in the projects. You ever come home at night and the projects I guarantee you do that a few times. You'll never need to jump bungee jump again. You know that that's real, that's a real, real fear. You can grow up next to crack dealers and hear gunshots popping off who needs throw, who needs to whitewater raft after that, right? Aaron Watson: Yeah. Ed Latimore: Just stay up long enough to hear people wake up and you'll hear you see stuff that's life. But I, the throw seeking behavior, but you're right. I mean, people, I feel like people don't feel alive when it comes down to. I read this somewhere and I wish I could find the exact wording so I would not have find it again. I suppose that we all have different levels of dopamine sensitivity. And those of us who are. Very sensitive to dopamine, we don't, we don't need to go rush and jump off things because, you know, life is already rewarding enough. Those of us who are dopamine resistant, however, we don't, they don't, they don't get the same reward from living that the rest of us do. So they got to push the envelope because the dopamine resistance. Now obviously, if anyone was listening to this who is a neurochemist or neurobiologists, feel free to, to write me and correct me on this theory, or point me in the direction of this research, because I have seen this enough, and enough, you know, quoting enough different ways to know it has to be based on something. Apparently it's like in the same regard, I can't do gambling. Like I remember the last time I gambled, I will just living in LA. It was when the Giants made it, this is how clear it is in my memory. I don't even watch football that much anymore. It was on the Giants were in the second round of the NFC divisional playoffs against the Falcons, not the Falcons, the 49ers and the game was going back and forth. And I bet $20, $20 on the Falcons. That's it? I mean, on the Falcons, the 49ers $20. And I broke, I mean, and it wasn't, it was 20 I could lose. It was nothing. And I really had a heart attack watching a game. I'm not built for these things like that. They make - they bring a rush to you that you can't control. Aaron Watson: Yeah. I mean, I get kind of a similar notion of going into casinos and that feeling of artificiality. And you're like, I know that there's stuff in here that is like working on my brain, that I'm not even aware of. Ed Latimore: Right Aaron Watson: That they're purely playing on my subconscious. Ed Latimore: Ain't no natural light. They pump oxygen in. There's always sound. I mean, these are all because I'm trying to think, I'm trying to think. Of my, all my pro fights. I think only two of them haven't been in casinos of some sort or maybe three. So some intimately familiar with casinos, and, and I'm really and the psychology of a casino fascinates me because here's the thing set up to keep you entertained and take your money, take money from you. And I always wonder how could someone be so bored that they sit there and press a button, press a button, press a button. Cause it was really all it is. I mean, listen, now we're not talking about car games. That's a different story. I enjoy poker and to for a purely mathematical reason blackjack. But, but the rest of the games, press the button, press the button, press the button. And you realize that, yeah, you may have had like you may have had a leaning towards the gambler once you get in there, man, the whole system set up to just keep you there and keep sucking your money, right from you. Now they let you take money directly off your card as it's really a monster. Aaron Watson: Yeah. I love that you shared that a little bit about having to walk home late in the projects, and there's a good friend of mine and a former guest, Adam Harrington. We talk about the idea that there's a kind of, extended childhood for many. And culturally, if you look at kind of the history of humans and small tribes in different ways, society has been arranged. There was often a rite of passage or a coming-of-age that, you know, you see that ceremonially in like a bar or bat mitzvah or these other things, but there's less of the actual maybe real ripping or, or, or extreme movement from one phase of your life to another. And I'm curious, cause, cause you do talk sometimes about masculinity and these other topics, whether that's on Twitter and elsewhere first, what your, if you feel like there was a specific experience or maybe just growing up that you were pushed in that direction more quickly and if you agree with that notion that in that same way that people are kind of looking to feel alive and looking to chase those thrills, if there's also a similar idea going on with people struggling with that transition from childhood to adulthood. Ed Latimore: Well, well, for me personally. I remember, I remember clearly when I realized that when I at least realized, okay, "I'm the most mature human being in this household." And it's going to be up to me, to fend for myself and figure this out because if I leave my development up to, cause I lived with my mom, I didn't live with my dad. My dad lived in Philadelphia. And my mom lives here in Pittsburgh, but I remember clearly. I was like, "This is not going to go well for me, if I don't make decisions for myself." I was 11 years old. My mom got drunk and got into a fight with some lady in the street and okay, I get it. Like, even as an adult, like you drink, you go do dumb stuff. Whatever. What well, why the incident stands out to me is when I remember holding her back and trying to keep it from going and to, you know, she went and did it anyway. And so in my mind I'm like, "Wow, this is where we're at." Like, I - and looking back into, you know, I have clarity now at 32, that I didn't have it 11. By 11 I would definitely be like, yeah, we're not. And from that point, I mean, I'm pretty sure, like when I got, when I got to high school, I spent. So much time away with my friends and I didn't, I didn't, I think I woke, I think I spent maybe 2 holidays fully at home, but most times I either wake up at a friend's house or I'd go over there man. I just wasn't interested in being home. I didn't feel like that was going to nurture and develop me. I felt like where I was where other things where. They were developing me a a different structure, a better structure for family. So, for me, I mean, I think that's a little early, like, and not just literally, I mean, it's way early. But there was definitely a transition from you cause it's a naivety that was gone, right? You, we, we need to grow up thinking that our parents take care of us and that the world is kind of a nice place. Even if it isn't. We gotta, we have to believe that so we don't transition too early before we have the emotional maturity to cope with some of the things that we see and what have to do to protect ourselves. While I was not afforded that luxury, and so, there, was a quick shift over. And I think I handled it all right. I'm certainly okay now, but this is like years. I mean, this is this 20 years ago, 20 years, and certainly many, many mistakes along the way in terms of how I dealt with myself and the world around me. But it has to start somewhere. As far as other people and relating this, relating other people and they're like lack of some type of rich war, or event to make them transition compared to mine and how I feel. I think what most people are missing back to that Darwin as a modern day, society is really too easy. It's too easy, and because there is not a difficult external challenge, there is no reason to move from this stage completely. When you're a child to when you are a fully functional, capable adult. Somebody asked a question on, on Twitter. I are chomping and gave my two cents. Like "When is a boy considered a man?" And I thought about it and I thought about it. And I was like, "I know when. A boy's considered a man, when he has his first major catastrophe, whether it's financial, physical, motional, whatever. And he recovers from it without his parents, even knowing that it had happened in the first place. At that point, he has embraced the world and has embraced the ugliness that is the world. And has survived and come back from it and didn't rely on his parents for any type of support," because that's what they're there for. I mean, none of us, none of us wrote a letter, and when, you know, "Dear - dear mom and dad, it would be great if you guys, you know, fertilize and had me. P.S. Nine months, right?" No. They made a decision and you're here as a result. So it's, I think it's the parent's job to rear you up to a certain point. But at some point you gotta, you gotta bounce, right? Aaron Watson: Yeah. Ed Latimore: And what we lack is a bouncing event because societies, it's just too easy. It's just too easy. What a lot of, you know, and let society can change all at once too. This is where people get upset about. Really, you know, this is kinda like what, what I take it a different way. Cause I see it a different way. But generally speaking, right? This is what a lot of, red pilling red pill ideas are when it comes down to society is too easy. Our society thinks a certain way. Human biology drives you another way. And all our problems we have is when we have the class, but don't consider how to best mitigate it or direct people to a certain course of behavior. What - I saying that because the issue of men, right. If we say there's an issue. When men mature in development. Human nature is going to want us to chill out and seek pleasure or minimize discomfort. Okay. That's - that's acceptable. Human nature is also going to want us to have an attractive woman around and have means to have great things. But, society. Has nothing to force us to develop anymore. We're not going to develop on our own. We want to avoid the pain, remember that. But society has taken away all the things that make people grow and develop. You know, what they called the, the generation after world war II, the greatest generation ever. And what did you have to survive? The Great Depression, World War Two, right? And these are just regular people. We're not, we're not talking about anyone that survived the Reconstruction of the South. The - these are hard events and a hard life, that make hard, harder human beings that really value our process and really value life. And it's not, it's not that it well, it wasn't the Netflix and Chill generation. It wasn't the Tinder generation. It wasn't the selfie go - people were just happy to have a job and make things happen. And, you know, I saw things side by side and it really summed it up. It, it was, it was some, some girl in a signup that goes "I have. I have my, my, my degree in gender studies. Hire me." And it was a sign from my guy during the depression. And he goes, "I speak three languages and served in a war and I can't find a job. Will work for anything." And it was like, this is the thing. There's nothing to force people to develop. That's why people can get away with a major and stuff like gender studies, because I can tell you 'till I'm blue in the face, go be an electrical engineer. You're going to look at your surroundings and go, "What the hell should I do that for? That's very, very difficult. I don't want to do that, difficulty. Everyone around me is drinking and partying at school. I really want to do that. That seems easier." and then you got, you got people who came from that generation. It's not that their advice is bad. It just no longer applause, which is it doesn't matter what you major in and just get a degree. Right. They tell you that. And so they support a lot of dumb decisions. So you get this whole generation of people who do not have anything, forcing them to embrace pain. So they move away from it. And I always say, if you, you can, you're going to be in pain, no matter what. Or you're going to be in pain because you were going after something, or you're going to be in pain because you're running away from something. Either way, it's going to burn your legs. Right? What are you going to hurt for? And no one's hurting to get better. Everyone is - everyone's trying to, trying to stay a certain way. And then all of a sudden they're 35 and they're like, "What the hell happened?" Right? And, but, but what I think is there's going to be a whole generation like man babies. I got, I got no other word for like - I mean - a whole generation of people who, who are freaking... I remember when I worked at Starbucks, I was 21. When, when this, when the internet first started, and that'll be even worse I think. But Bunch of people. I think I was the only one. There was one other girl, but everyone else there had bachelor's and master's degrees. And I was like, "What the hell happened?" Like what, how many wrong choices do you have to make to take out they master's degree and ended up working at - as a barista for like what were you making? Like nine an hour, maybe, plus tips? How many bad choices do you have to make? Well, a better question is how many hard choices did you get to avoid? And when you look at, when you start looking at things like that, then it all makes sense. I'm a lot more things will make sense instead of looking at what you did wrong, look at the hard things you had to avoid. Aaron Watson: Yeah, one of the, I've just picked this up really recently. It's I love that you said that because it's coming back to me, but every morning I'm trying to say, "I'm going to do the simple things that are hard." Because all these choices, whether that's, you know, you did your deadlifts and rose this morning, I did my pushups. Whether that's, you know, I'm going to eat vegetables and not processed foods - Ed Latimore: Right Aaron Watson: or all these things are simple. The, the idea that we don't know what we're supposed to be doing, or that we don't know what the things that lead to success are, is a fallacy, but making the hard decision to not just do it once, but do it over and over and over and over again is hard. That, that, that is not an easy thing to do for most people. So really trying to hone in on what simple things that are hard. Can I do every single day? That that to me is the number one kind of idea I'm trying to latch onto. Ed Latimore: Right. Because man, I really, over the past year, I really old past six months, half the years past, I really started to learn how to make money online. And then put it out in general, is this understanding money, right? And it's not complicated. You don't need a finance degree. You know what? You, you, you know, the simplest thing you have to understand, this is what money, right? And I think many things in life involve money, the simplest thing you have to understand is, if you give people something valuable, they'll pay you for it. That's it. Right. You get rid of that joke. Like, oh man, if I can get it, if I can get a million people to give me $1, I'd have a million dollars. What would you - it probably be a lot easier if you created something that people were like, "Ah! $15 is a steal, I'm going to buy that and then go learn, you know, the nuts and bolts of marketing, whatever. But the, the... I wish you could have seen my first website when I first started out online with anything, it was just an, I mean, it was ugly. There was no other word for it. Now it's beautiful. It's beautiful and it's SEO optimized and I have a lot of people that support and like to read and like the writing. But you just got to start. And I wrote, I don't, I don't write as much then. I don't worry as much now as I did then, but that's only because I'm working on other projects to build and, and continue to increase value. Because you can do any, you can do a lot of things wrong. Believe me, I've done a lot of things wrong. They probably left some dollars on the table, whatever. Right. But the one thing I have not done wrong, which is why I, I think I continue to attract opportunities and meet cool people is I give value. And it's just a simple idea, super simple. You know, if you get that, you didn't mess up anything else. I, you literally can mess up anything else. I mean, here's how much we're saying you can mess up. For a long time, I didn't know my mailing link was broken. Traffic was cool, right. Didn't know that I was broke. What else was wrong? Oh, man. I, I, you know, you put out some bad articles, whatever, and people go, that's not gonna fly, but you, you put out value. But when we take that, I did anything else. Same with dieting, right? Eating right and health. Man, people will put together a whole books and go for them because it looks valuable and it is valued. But the, the super easiest way to be healthy. I tell people three things for, if you want to be optional and live like me, but three things avoid sugar. Cook your own meals and don't consume calories. You do those three things when you live forever, we're not living you'll at the very least you'll you'll eliminate most of what's going to break you down. And then the fourth optional thing, I don't drink alcohol, but like, you know, that's neither here nor there, but, but, but the three things, for sure, it's so super simple, Ain't no counting calories. Ain't no macro or micronutrients. Don't worry about cutting or fasting. Just do those 3 things.You'll be all good. You ain't even really got to go to the gym for real. I mean, but you can. Aaron Watson: Yeah, I just feel like when I work out or go to the gym, it makes it easier for me to make that decision to eat well. Cause like I did this workout, like I'm a little sore. I'm not gonna ruin that by throwing Cheetos in my mouth. Ed Latimore: Stacking good habits. Start with one habit. It's easier to stack another one on another one. And before you know, it. Before, you know, it, you got no tolerance for people with bad habits, you know, and then you get to that. And all of a sudden you're the bad guy, but... Aaron Watson: I did it. We're gonna start wrapping up here before asked the last two questions. I have to ask you when you might find a little bit annoying,Mayweather - McGregor. I don't know anything about boxing. Ed Latimore: And you certainly aren't going to learn anything from this. The Mayweather - McGregor thing, man. Look. I really are applaud and I looked at it from all angles. So first let me say the positives. I think it is a great business move because I can only imagine like, like when you hear something like that, you would like to think, man, that's a great idea. Maybe I would have done the same thing. I'm not going to lie and I don't think anyone else will lie. There is no way. If we weren't, if I was in the room and I was part of Mayweather's team and somebody said, yo, man, you know what sounds like a good idea. We should have him fight Connor McGregor.I'd be like, "Man, sit your ass down." Like this. There's no way anyone thought that. I would think that's a good idea, but, but someone raised their hand in a meeting in real life and said, you know what? I think will be a good idea. And they went, oh, we'll run with it. And I really think. Somehow he'll make more money probably from that fight when he fought Pacquiao. Oh, we'll se the the numbers. Businesses - great. Let's talk about the bad now. Here's a guy who toats himself as the best ever. Whatever, right. And this is just a boxing pet peeve. Toats himself as the best ever, you know, wants to put himself in that conversation. Has enough money. So it doesn't need to do it for money. So when I go fight, there are any number of gods that you can fight that, that, you know, the people would care about. And we're not just talking about the Les fan. I mean, people will care about names that are up and coming. But maybe they beat you. Maybe they don't. But the point is we, you do this and I don't think it's, it's the bet already said. The best thing that I already said, one of the worst things that happened to boxing was when they finally decided to fight Pacquiao. Past Pacqiao's prime, and the fight just wasn't and then it was doubled, you know, price and it wasn't a good fight. I think this is probably even worse for boxing. But this is just how I feel about it. There was boxing too, right? Let's put this in perspective. Here's a guy that won a gold medal. That means he probably had about 200 amateur fights, maybe 3. 49 professional fights. I've been doing this his whole life. Yeah. How many boxing matches has Conor McGregor had? Aaron Watson: You say? Ed Latimore: None man. None. I'd be, you know, now, now they had a clause, don't worry. Mayweather goes to the cage. I would be interested in that. Like I would actually watch the boxing match and then like, they, they had a clause, six months later, it goes to the cage. I'd be interested in that. Right. But I'm not interested in this. I mean, I don't even know date is I apparently it's signed or whatever, but we got, we got Triple G versus Alvarez. We got It's another good fight coming up. I can't even remember. They were just talking about awhile. Oh, Ward and Kovalev. Possibly a unification battle. A heavyweight with Joshua and Walter, or we get Joseph Parker to fight one of those, and there's just, there's just too many good fights. And somehow this is what people care about. So. Good, good, great, great business move in terms of, for the sport. Not interested. I remember I don't even want to care to fight. I know the caliber of the opponents he's fought. This fight should not last very long. Aaron Watson: Yeah. It's going to be interesting. And they are doing an amazing job of marketing it and getting eyeballs and people to care about it. Ed Latimore: Way better than I thought they was. Put like that. Man, somebody is really, somebody deserves a gold star because that that's a great idea. It's going to be great. I mean, it's going to be huge. I'm not going to. Yeah. Aaron Watson: Well, if, if people have liked all this perspective that you've shared in today's interview, I really want to encourage them to connect with you and the digital world. You are, I I'd say like in a select tier must follows in my opinion on Twitter. Ed Latimore: Oh, thanks man. Aaron Watson: But if people want to connect with you in the digital world you're on Twitter at EdLatimore, where else can people check out your writing and the other stuff you're working on? Ed Latimore: EdLatimore Twitter, right? And the website is www.edlatimore.com. Every now and then I put little snippets on Facebook. On my, on my fan page is EdLatimoreBoxer, but also send those to my mailing list as well. Do a lot of writings, keep the mind sharp man writing, writing, writing. So, so you had a main page though, Twitter and Facebook. To or, Twitter or my website and Facebook. Aaron Watson: Awesome. Well, we'll be sure to link to that in the show notes at goingdeepwithaaron.com/podcast. This will be episode 226. Once again, you can check that out at goingdeepthereand.com/podcast. But ed, as we do at the end of every episode, I like it when my guests can issue an actionable personal challenge to leave them at the end of the interview with some to go do. So I gonna give you the mic one final time to challenge the audience. Ed Latimore: Do something you're afraid of. There's not going to, you know, obviously don't go jump off a building or something stupid like that. Do something that you're afraid of to get your blood pumping. You think people care about the outcome, but they don't really care. Man. Go talk to some girl you've been, been worried about or whatever or go apply to some job, or tell, or apologize to a friend, give forgiven, do something that's going to make you uncomfortable as heck. And then realize you're fine afterwards and that's where it starts. You realize the world doesn't end the world doesn't care, and then you really get power. Aaron Watson: And it translates across all those different areas. You do it in one area and those other consecutive areas are going to get easier. Ed Latimore: Absolutely. Aaron Watson: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming here and sharing your time with us and your perspective. We just went deep with ed Latimore. Hope you've been out there has a fantastic day.
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Going Deep with Aaron Watson is brought to you by Audible - get a FREE audiobook download and 30 day free trial at http://www.audibletrial.com/Aaron. With over 180,000 titles to choose from, you can enjoy from any mobile device. --- Jon Westenberg is an entrepreneur, a passionate creative and a business and transformational consultant. He started his first company at 18, walking off the grill of a McDonald's to create a music management company. Since then, he has worked with startups, spoken at events across the globe and completed consulting contracts for major corporations. He as recently risen in profile with prolific writing on Medium. Jon’s Book Recommendations Life After God by Douglas Coupland The Philosopher's Stone: Alchemy and the Secret Research for Exotic Matter by Joseph Farrell Jon’s Challenge; Push the time when you first look at your phone each day back by one hour. http://www.goingdeepwithaaron.com/podcast Connect with Jon Medium Website If you liked this interview, check out episode 113 with Todd Brison where we discuss writing, building an effective career, and Snapchat geofilters.
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Going Deep with Aaron Watson is brought to you by Audible - get a FREE audiobook download and 30 day free trial at http://www.audibletrial.com/Aaron. With over 180,000 titles to choose from, you can enjoy from any mobile device. --- Tucker Matheson and Pichon Duplan are management consultants at PriceWaterhouseCooper. They are passionate about helping college students, and recent grads, understand how to get the most out of their degree. They’ve brought their diverse backgrounds together to create one voice in their first book. Book Fast Forward: What Is Your College Degree Worth? The Challenge; Think of one thing you’ve been interested in doing and go make it happen. http://www.goingdeepwithaaron.com/podcast Connect with Tucker & Pichon Tucker Pichon Website YouTube If you liked this interview, check out episode 131 with Larry Gioia where we discuss how to make more quality connections.
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Tom Corson-Knowles is an entrepreneur, blogger and international bestselling author. Today, he teaches new and established authors and writers how to achieve incredible success by writing and selling ebooks on Amazon Kindle. Tom is the founder of TCK Publishing, an international trade book publisher that is leading the industry in providing advanced marketing support for authors. TCK Publishing specializes in marketing for both fiction and nonfiction authors to help get their messages and stories out to millions of readers all over the world. Tom’s Challenge; Spend 15 minutes without any distractions (no phone or people) to think about the primary problems in your life and work on solutions. http://www.goingdeepwithaaron.com/podcast Connect with Tom Website If you liked this interview, check out episode 127 with Jim Miller where we discuss writing a 700 page oral history.
Kevin Kelly is the founding executive editor of Wired magazine and a former editor/publisher of the Whole Earth Review. He has also been a writer, photographer, conservationist, and student of Asian and digital culture.
Kelly stepped down as executive editor of Wired in 1999; his current job title is Senior Maverick. Partially due to his reputation as Wired's editor, he is noted as a participant in and an observer of cyberculture. His books include;
Kevin’s Challenge; Take $100 and invest it into someone that cannot pay you back directly. Learn to be full of gratitude. Try Kiva. Acknowledgements John Craig Mike Dariano Kiva Connect with Kevin Website If you liked this interview, check out episode 109 where I rant about the current state of the internet.
Todd is an author who helps creative people find their untapped potential. He is the author of The Creative's Curse, a book about the pains of being creative at every phase - Discover, Discipline, and Destiny. He is also the founder of Snap Swipe Post, a site which creates custom snapchat geofilters.
His goal in business is to create things people enjoy, whether that means a well-crafted document, a funny video, or just a simple acronym. He loves his redhead, Chacos, and sweet potatoes. We referenced his post The Answer is No Todd’s Challenge; Work one Saturday. Don’t write off your spare time or believe that you don’t have the time. Preview his book here http://toddbrison.com/godeep Connect with Todd Anchor Medium Personal Website Geofilter Website If you liked this interview, check out episode 105 with Declan Wilson here we discuss how millennials can step up and attack their goals.
Declan is an author of the recently released “The Millennial Way: Step Up, Step Out, Step Forward”. Declan originally set out to write a book to debunk the misconceptions and stigma surrounding the Millennial generation.
After interviewing Millennials doing “awesome things” with their lives, Declan noticed a recurring pattern among all their personal journeys, including his own. The pattern of Stepping Up, Stepping Out, and Stepping Forward became what Declan calls The Millennial Way. It’s not a 3 step process to achieve your dreams, it’s not a self-help book, it’s not a formula for success. Rather, it’s a beacon of self-awareness and clarity to your journey. Together with his wife Erica, Declan runs the blog Millennial Type. Besides working full-time and running this blog, Declan is an avid fan of bike riding, anything Pittsburgh, reading, listening to NPR, binge-watching Netflix with Erica, cuddling with their cats, playing with their son Henry, watching Ted Talks, finding awesome podcasts and cooking. Declan’s Challenge; Step up. Recognize your dream isn’t as silly as you think and start building the skills you're going Check Out Declan’s Book; The Millennial Way: Step Up, Step Out, Step Forward Connect with Declan Website If you liked this interview, check out episode 46 with Taylor Pearson where we discuss the end of jobs and the future of entrepreneurship.
Hassan Osman is a PMO Manager at Cisco and a Carnegie Mellon and Harvard University graduate. His main area of expertise is in leading large and complex technology programs – particularly in a virtual team environment.
At Cisco, he is responsible for leading and managing a team of 20+ project & program managers on delivering projects to Cisco's Enterprise clients in the eastern United States. Previously at Cisco, he was a Senior Program Manager, where he was responsible for scoping, negotiating, planning and executing multi-million dollar projects for their customers. He has written two Amazon bestselling books and teaches an online course about virtual teams. He is obsessed with life hacks and productivity and lives in Boston with his wife & 2 daughters. Hassan’s Challenge; Write something 5 days/week, 20 minutes per day to clarify your thought process and articulate your ideas. Connect with Hassan Website If you liked this interview, check out episode 83 with Kristi Woolsey where we discuss remote employment and the future of workplaces.
Chris Guillebeau is a New York Times bestselling author and modern-day explorer. During a lifetime of self-employment that included a four-year commitment as a volunteer executive in West Africa, he visited every country in the world (193 in total) before his 35th birthday. Since then he has modeled the proven definition of an entrepreneur: “Someone who will work 24 hours a day for themselves to avoid working one hour a day for someone else.”
Chris’s first book, The Art of Non-Conformity, was translated into more than twenty languages. His second book, The $100 Startup, was a New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestseller, selling more than 300,000 copies worldwide. His latest book, The Happiness of Pursuit, was published in September 2014 and was also a New York Times bestseller. Every summer in Portland, Oregon, Chris hosts the World Domination Summit, a gathering of creative, remarkable people with thousands in attendance. Chris is also the founder of Pioneer Nation, Unconventional Guides, the Travel Hacking Cartel, and numerous other projects. Chris’s Challenge; Create a measurable metric for some form of creative output and execute on it. Example; write 1,000 words per day for 6 days per week. Check out Chris’ Books The Art of Nonconformity The $100 Startup The Happiness of Pursuit Born For This Connect with Chris Website
Jonathan Abrams is an award-winning journalist who has covered the NBA for ESPN’s Grantland, The New York Times and Los Angeles Times. He is a graduate of the University of Southern California.
His first book, Boys Among Men, chronicles the generation of NBA players that jumped directly to the pros from high school and the struggles they faced along the way. Jonathan’s Challenge; Buy Shea Serrano’s book, The Rap Yearbook. Check out Abrams’ book; Boys Among Men Connect with Jonathan Website
Colin is a professional author and international speaker, and co-founded a publishing company. He travels full-time, moving to a new country every four months or so, with the country being determined by the votes of readers of his blog.
In the six years since starting his blog, Colin has lived in New Zealand, Thailand, Iceland, India, Romania, and Czech Republic, visited the 48 contiguous US states twice, road tripped through South America, rode the rails through Southeast Asia, and visited about 30 other countries. Since hitting the road, he has pivoted from building brands for other companies, to consulting on branding, to building brands for himself. He has run nearly a dozen medium- and small-scale endeavors, in industries ranging from sustainable product design to subscription-based publishing technologies. He currently makes a living by publishing books through a publishing company called Asymmetrical Press, which he also co-founded with two fellow authors, Josh and Ryan from The Minimalists. He also periodically teaches classes, gives talks at schools, conferences, and events, and runs workshops all over the world. Colin’s Challenge; 20 minutes per day away from technology and other people to allow your mind to free associate and be creative. Colin’s Writing On Failing Gracefully Connect with Colin Website If you liked this interview, check out episode 23 with Nathan Chan. We discuss publishing and brand-building.
Ben is the Director of Institutional Asset Management at Ritholtz Wealth Management. He helps the team create detailed investment plans and manage portfolios for institutions and individuals to help them achieve their goals.
Ben has been managing institutional portfolios his entire career, starting out with an institutional investment consulting firm developing portfolio strategies and creating investment plans for various foundations, endowments, pensions, hospitals, insurance companies and high net worth individuals. More recently, he was part of the portfolio management team for an investment office that managed a large endowment fund for a charitable organization. Ben’s blogging mission is to try to explain the complexities of the various aspects of finance in a way that everyone could understand them. Both the economy and the financial markets are complex adaptive systems, but they don’t necessarily require complex solutions. Common sense and self-awareness are extremely underrated attributes in the world of finance. Ben’s Challenge; Reach out to someone you admire and take them out for lunch/coffee. Networks are underrated. Ben’s Book A Wealth of Common Sense: Why Simplicity Trumps Complexity in Any Investment Plan Connect with Ben Website Connect with Morgan Housel
Morgan Housel came on the podcast to talk cognitive biases, personal finance, and writing. He took an interesting path to his current career and uses that to his advantage when teaching through his writing.
Today, Morgan is a partner at Collaborative Fund and a former columnist at the Motley Fool and The Wall Street Journal. He is a two-time winner of the Best in Business award from the Society of American Business Editors and Writers and was selected by the Columbia Journalism Review for the Best Business Writing 2012 anthology. In 2013 he was a finalist for the Gerald Loeb Award and Scripps Howard Award. Morgan’s Book Recommendations The Intelligent Investor by Ben Graham Confessions of a Street Addict by Jim Cramer Morgan’s Writing Financial Advice for My New Son 122 Things Everyone Should Know About Investing and the Economy Why I’m an Optimist
Twitter
Website Morgan’s Challenge; Go out and read things that you know you are going to disagree with to round out your view of the world.
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Watson: Morgan, thank you so much for coming on my podcast. I'm really excited about this.
Morgan Housel: Thanks for having me here. Good to be here. Watson: There's so much I want to talk to you about, but I want to start off by just hearing the story of how you decided that you wanted to become a writer and maybe, more specifically, that you went to write about business and finance. It's not necessarily a traditional path that people would take. I know that you studied Economics at the University of Southern California, but you really had kind of a, I don't know if you'd be comfortable with me saying this, but a meteoric rise in the world of business and finance writing. You're still relatively young, you contribute to the Wall Street Journal, you work at the Motley Fool. You do a lot of cool things. How did you get interested in all this? Morgan Housel: Well, I think when I look back, there was really no decision. I think it just kind of happened slowly, and to take you back, I think when I was fairly young in my teens, I knew I wanted to focus my career around investing. I didn't exactly know why, but I think it's a popular and attractive field to a lot of people just because it's numbers, and it looks exciting and fast-moving. It really caught my attention, and all throughout college, my idea was to go into investment banking. That too is a pretty popular choice. I think for a lot of young people who are planning out their careers in finance, because from the outside, it looks exciting and fast moving and it looks like there's a lot of prestige and a lot of money, and you can become big and successful. That's kind of the outside view of investment banking. I think it was my Junior year in college when I started interning at an investment bank. You know, this has been my dream for years. So, to actually be doing this and to walk into a bank and like, ‘Oh my gosh, we're actually doing this.’ It was so exciting for me. Then, it was like this colossal crashing down disappointment of almost instantly like the first day realizing I don't want to do this. I think investment banking is less well known today, but definitely 10 years ago, this was a case where you could make the most money, and finance was investment banking. There's a reason for that, and the reason is one that most young students, I don't think paid that much attention to, is that because when you work in investment banking, your life is objectively miserable. They had had this saying at the bank I worked at, which was, ‘if you don't come in on Saturday, don't bother showing up on Sunday.’ It wasn't even the hours- the culture of investment banking really turned me off. It was just so ferociously competitive, and some people would thrive in that environment. They do thrive in that environment. I think my personality was much more geared towards slowing down and trying to take a step back and looking at the world of investing. So very quickly, I realized investment banking wasn't going to work. Then I had an internship in private equity, and that I really liked because that was sort of like investment banking. You kind of take a step back, and the tone and pace is much more removed and lower than it is in investment banking. The focus is on investing rather than deal-making. It was about long-term investing in good companies that you wanted to buy. That was really appealing to me. That was the summer of 2007, which of course, soon after that, the financial system imploded. If you are working in a private equity company that relies on borrowing lots of money to make your investments, things got pretty itchy around that office. Then it was clear to me. I was a senior in college, I guess, at this point. It was clear I needed to find something else to do in investing. I didn't know what it was going to be, a hedge fund or work in a mutual fund, something. I really didn't know. I was kind of adrift at that point. I had a friend who was a writer at the Motley Fool, and I kind of stumbled upon some of his work. It was just awesome to me that he was just writing about stocks that he owned, and he liked giving his opinion and had kind of a platform to share his views with the world. I thought that was really neat. I applied and they let me start writing.I guess that was, you know, nine years ago and I'm still here. There's really no decision. I didn't think of becoming a financial writer. It was something I just kind of stumbled upon by accident, I guess. I can't believe it's been nine years now, but here we are. Watson: Gotcha. I want to go back to you. You said you found this interest while you're still in your teens. Was there a family member or someone that exposed you to that world when you were young? I'm a similar experience, and my mom has pictures of me sitting on the couch with my dad watching Louis Ruekeyser’s Wall Street Week show when I was maybe 8. I barely understood a single word that they were saying, but there's probably some subconscious memory of that ingrained in my brain that led me to an interest in finance. Was there anything like that, that you felt like set that base? Morgan Housel: Well, nothing quite that similar. My grandfather owned a small bank in upstate New York, a very small bank, so I guess there was finance in the family, but I was so disconnected and removed from it, and never really talked to him about it. I think one thing that stands out was I was probably 16 or 17, and I scrounged up a thousand bucks. I think it was just from jobs that I had been working at. I can't recall how it came about, but I put it in a CD certificate of deposit, and I must have intuitively known how interest works and why I was putting money in a CD, like here's how they're going to pay you interest and you get paid a certain amount. I must have intuitively known how it works, but I vividly remember logging into my account and the balance had gone from $1,000 to $1,000 and 3 cents. I just remember it was like, it was the most astounding thing I'd ever seen. It was only 3 cents. It just took me aback that somebody paid you to do nothing. I sat back and went about my day and someone paid you to do that, and even though it was such a tiny amount, it was just seeing it actually occur, kind of set the investing edge that this is a really cool thing that you can do. You can make investments in various securities, various companies or stocks or bonds or CDs like that and get paid for it. It was like this side job that you can make money without working. Of course there is work that you need to do, and investing quite a bit of it, but just the concept of getting paid for investing in something really took me pretty quick. It was clear to me, I think from that moment that I wanted to be involved in investing. So, after that is when I started learning about it as much as I could, and I was reading as many books about it as I could. Watson: Gotcha. Any books in particular that stand out as your favorites or were particularly impactful for you? Morgan Housel: The first investing book that I think I read was Jim Kramer's book called “Confessions of a Street Addict.” I thought that was really good. I really think that before his TV days. Before his shtick kind of became zany and, you know, having these loud buttons that he pushes, he really was, and still is a very smart guy with a fascinating career. So, that book I found really interesting. Of course that was from the perspective of a stock trader, which I never got interested in, and still don't have any interest in, it’s kind of a lower view in the investing realm. But hearing his story, it's a very well written book. So hearing that story was pretty interesting. That was the first time that I really started reading about what the investing industry is like. If you start searching around, ‘I'm new to investing, what book should I read?’ You're inevitably going to come across, well you should read, Ben Graham's “The Intelligent Investor.’ I did, but I think I read it so early that a lot of it was over my head. I think there were points, conceptually that I took away from the value investing philosophy, but a lot of that book, even if it's written in a fairly low key way, if you're brand new to investing, it can be a little intimidating. Watson: So, once you set about on this new job with the Motley Fool and your job now, having experienced the investment banking world, you've experienced the private equity world, and now you're tasked with basically informing and educating the public about stocks and about personal finance about this world. How do you go about, or do you have a process by which you decide what you want to explain, how you find topics to discuss, maybe your writing process itself? Do you have like a time every day that you set aside for writing? Anything like that as far as your process? Morgan Housel: One thing that a lot of writers will come across is that most professions get easier over time. You get experience, and you get a process of doing things, and it becomes easier. If you're a doctor with 30 years experience, seeing a patient is probably much easier than it was when you were just out of medical school. Writing, I think might be the opposite because you start running out of things to say, and as time goes on, you've really picked the low hanging fruit, and it becomes much more difficult with every passing year to think of something new to say. This is where I think financial media in general might have a problem because when you have nothing new to say, there are two options, basically. You can repeat yourself or you can make something up. Ofter, it goes to the later. I think a lot of people who read financial news can relate with that. A lot of times, that’s what we would call noise. Just information that is not relevant or is pandering to whatever the market did today. Did you really try to stay away from that? You are forced to kind of repeat yourself, and there's a financial writer named Jonathan Clements, who has said, ‘there's really only about 20 articles to write in finance.’ If you're a finance writer, they're really only 20 unique things that you can say that are unique, important topics, and everything after that, you're just kind of saying the same thing in a different context. That's something I can definitely relate to. For the last several years, I feel like I've been saying the exact same thing, but trying to put it in a different context, and how I try to put it in a different context is kind of relating the basic investing philosophies to other fields and other industries. The only way to do that is to be constantly reading about other fields and other industries, reading about history, psychology, sociology, or physics, or biology, or something- just reading about other topics and seeing how you can interrelate finance and investing to other fields. A lot of my day in terms of the writing process is just what I would just call casual reading, I guess. Reading biographies, reading books, reading newspapers, reading other financial writers, and you just try to put pieces together until something sticks. A lot of times they don't stick. It gets difficult to try to find something new, and a lot of financial writers that I've talked to, some of the best financial writers would say, look, ‘if they write 30 articles per year, there's only two of them that they are really, really proud of.’ I think that ratio is probably pretty consistent among financial writers. It's difficult to really say something unique. There's something truly insightful day after day, week after a week. But if you're casually reading and just trying to put the pieces together of how the world works, you'll stumble across some insights once in a while that you feel help the world and help your readers figure out the world of investing a little bit better and think differently than they would have otherwise. Watson: Outside of this regular casual reading that you're doing, are you setting aside a specific day of the week or time of day or anything like that to bang out the writing or is it more of a, you know, you're casually reading and then you hit that ‘well, there is something I can write about.’ Then you jump to the page or you make your notes so that when it's time to write, you're able to recall? Morgan Housel: I think most writers have some sort of quota that they need to hit. There is some professional pressure that you need to submit something by this date and time, and I have those pressures. So there's not pure flexibility to be casual when you're going to write it. Something, I would say to that though, is when I started an article office, sometimes I really have no idea where it's going to end. I found that similar when talking to other writers, that it's kind of the same. You start with an idea and you start writing it down, and then as you're writing it down, other things come to you or it becomes clear what you're trying to say. I think that speaks to one of the neat things about writing, which is that it's just a really great way to clarify your thoughts. Once you put them on paper and start writing about them, you think of them in different ways than you would have if you were just thinking about it in your head. So, a lot of times, it just starts with one, one idea that comes to you, and you start writing it. Then it just kind of spills out from there. Something that I really try to do with the writing process is go back and delete as much as possible. The best writing I think is when you can explain something in the fewest words possible. So after I've written a draft, I try to go back and pretty viciously delete sentences, delete whole paragraphs, and even entire topics in there to try to cut it down and make it as clean and as possible. In terms of, you know, the day to day writing process, when I wake up in the morning, I do my reading. Most writers,there've been studies on this, are most creative in the morning. Right when they wake up, that's their peak creativity for the day, because their mind is fresh. They don't have buckets of emails that they had just responded to, or they didn't have a meeting that they just got out of. They wake up with a fresh brain, and that's when they're most creative. I've never been really able to do that. So, I wake up and I'm pretty much useless before I've had a pot of coffee, and that's when I wake up and read for several hours, and I have meetings and talk to some people. Then, I do most of my writing in the evening. Watson: Gotcha. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's very insightful. Kind of getting into the actual content of the advice that you're giving, and these 20 to 30 articles that every finance writer writes, one of the things that goes under appreciated sometimes, or maybe to someone who hasn't had the experience of studying finance or business is that it's not just pure numbers. It's not. Well, some would argue accounting isn't even pure numbers. But as you mentioned, these histories, these books/biographies, the study of psychology and sociology really go deeply into managing your finances and making sound financial decisions. Cognitive biases are a huge part of the self-reflection part when making sound financial decisions- why do you think that? It isn't always realized that this plays such a large role in the realm of finance? Morgan Housel: Here's one example. I've used this example before, and it's from an investor named Dean Williams, who first gave this analogy. There are two types of physics. There's classical physics, which teaches you know, I have a ball and here's a ramp, and you can measure precisely, how fast, how far that ball is going to roll down the ramp. It's very clean and very clear. Then, there is nuclear physics, which teaches you that the world is much more uncertain and messy and things don't always work in the way that you think they would work. So you have Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, which teaches you that, when you're looking at atoms and neutrons and whatnot, we'll even know exactly what we're looking at because we don't know if the act of looking at something is going to change what we're looking at. It’s much harder to measure what's going on in that world. The analogy is that investing as much is not like classical physics. It's much more like a world where things are messy and uncertain, and the forces that move financial markets and become important in investing are counterintuitive and move in ways that we don't think that they should. So on paper, if you think of investing like classical physics like it's something clean that we can measure with precise precision, then you might think that you can just focus on the numbers and tear apart a company's balance sheet and plug it into some formulas and come up with data that's going to tell you exactly how the economy and the stock market should move in theory, but that's not how it works. The economy and the stock market are moved by these crazy messy, counterintuitive forces of human behavior. So I think from one point of view, a really common point of view is really that finance should be able to work because finance is a math based subject, that it's accounting and numbers- that if we grab ahold of the numbers and have enough data and plug them into enough formulas, that we can kind of grab capitalism by the horns and figure out what the stock market and the economy are going to do next. I just think there's so much evidence proving that doesn't work, and it's not that math and data and numbers and formulas aren't important. They absolutely are. I think there's so much evidence that it's the messy, uncertain, counterintuitive forces of human behavior and the biases that we all fall to that moved markets over time, and that caused recessions. It caused bull markets and bear markets. That's kind of what I've tried to focus on in investing, or what are these biases and human behaviors that we all fall for, and in some ways I think are impossible to control and that move markets over time, because that's where I think investors can find an edge. It’s what's important to markets and investing over time. Watson: Gotcha. When you mentioned the cognitive biases, you've written about some of these in articles of yours. It is a component of the education that you're trying to share with readers. Is there any way that learning about cognitive biases or just digging deeper into that realm has affected your personal life, maybe outside of finance writing itself, like recognizing that you are commonly committing the similar cognitive errors or anything like that? Morgan Housel: Oh, definitely. I think one of the biggest problems when you're reading about cognitive biases is that there's such a tendency to assume that these flaws that you're reading about apply to other people, but not yourself. It's difficult sometimes to take a step back and admit that you are just as susceptible to these problems as anybody else. I think if you can come to that admission, it's humbling, and you start to take your own ideas and your own beliefs and your own outlooks less seriously. I think if there's one big impact on my personal life, it has made me more skeptical of things that I believe myself, and I'm much less certain about things that I was in the past. I'm much more open to the idea that things rarely go according to plan and your outlooks are really just ways that you fool yourself, and your beliefs in the market are incomplete because everyone's beliefs about not just investing, but most things, most beliefs we have about religion or politics or economics are really just reflections of the experiences we've had in life and the people that we've met in life. Both of those things are largely outside of your own control. I think if you look at it in that way, there's so much out there in the world that you don't see and haven't experienced that if you did see and experience, you would think much differently about these things than you currently do. That can be a humbling and kind of disappointing realization to make, but it's made me much more skeptical and maybe a little passive about how I go about investing. Watson: Gotcha. Definitely humbling, and I think it also made me take a more positive view as it really allows you to kind of let things go. If something unpredictable comes up, not that you can predict the unpredictable, but it allows you to say, ‘well, this type of stuff happens,’ and you aren't necessarily just completely thrown off your rocker by this type of day to day event. Morgan Housel: Yeah. You know, there's a great quote from Benjamin Graham where he says, ‘the purpose of the margin of safety is to render the forecast unnecessary.’ What he means by that is that if you have room for error in what you're doing, your forecasts don't need to be accurate because then you can get to a situation where you say ‘is the stock market going to rise this year? Well I have no idea, but I don't need it to rise this year to meet my goals. I don't need the market to rise this year to pay my bills this year. Now, are we going to have a recession this year? Well, I have no idea. If we do, I'll be okay because I have an emergency fund, and we'll be able to weather the storm. That's where I think people add value to their own financial lives is when you start just building in margins of safety in your portion of portfolios and your professional life, because that's when you start admitting that most of the outcomes are out of your control and that's how you deal with it. It's not about perfectly forecasting what's going to happen next. It's about being prepared for a variety of things that could happen next. Watson: Despite your acknowledgement of that there, do you often get asked to make forecasts or predictions, or have you maybe trained your audience or the people around you to not really try that? Morgan Housel: I hope I've trained the audience because I never make forecasts, and if I do, I try to couch it in a way that makes it clear that I don't take my own forecasts very seriously. One story about that was a radio show probably four or five years ago. Before they started talking with the producers, they said, ‘we're going to watch your six month market forecast.’ I said, ‘Oh, I don't do that. I don't have one.’ They said, ‘Oh, well, we're not going on for another 10 or 20 minutes before we start recording, so you have time to come up with one.’ To me, they're nice, good meaning people. But, I think that too is a problem with the media, that we take something as complex as the stock market or the global economy where there are literally billions of moving parts if not trillions. You think you can just tame it in your head in the next 10 minutes, and you try to come up with a forecast of what it's going to do next. That's a common view. If you watch financial TV, you really do get the impression that these people are just making a forecast off the top of their head, because they effectively are. I think if you look at the history of forecasts and the accuracy of these forecasts, you'll realize that when you make up a forecast off the top of your head, you're getting what you pay for. Watson: Absolutely. Do you think that the realm of finance and personal finance in general is something that could be better taught at a lower education level? So there's opportunities to go find your own education out there on the internet. If you're in college, there may be classes or maybe something like the very last year of high school that's optional. Do you think that that's something that we potentially underserve the next generation by not incorporating that to a higher degree in the classroom? Morgan Housel: Let me give you two answers. I think, yes, we absolutely don't teach it enough because finance is one of the few things that every single person, no matter what you do, no matter what your career path, no matter if you go to college or if you win the Nobel Prize, no matter what you do, finance is going to impact your life. You know, we're all going to need to budget and pay bills. That's something that affects everybody, but we don't teach it like that's the case. When you're going through high school, everyone has to take math and science and chemistry, which is great. That's how it should be. A lot of those topics aren't going to directly impact people's lives in the way that finance will, and everyone's lives will be impacted on finance, but we teach it as an optional thing that maybe if you're interested in it, here's a way to learn about it. In that sense, I think it's wrong. When we teach finance, I think we can go about it wrong, and there's some really interesting studies that are counterintuitive and shocking to people that financial classes, the people who take those classes, whether it's a personal finance class or an introduction to investing class, the outcomes of people who take those classes can sometimes be on average, worse than the people who didn't take the classes. You ask why that could be. When the researchers have dug into this, there's some really, there's some fascinating research by a professor named Lauren Willis at Loyola Law School. One of her big thesis is because, especially with financial education, it can increase confidence faster than ability. So, people come and take a basic finance course, and then they think they're George Soros and then they can go start day trading their 401k because they took a quick online introduction to investing course, and it increases your confidence faster than ability. So, on one hand, yes, we should be teaching finance more than we do, but we need to be careful about how it's taught. I definitely think rather than teaching the analytical basics of finance, we should teach finance from a history and psychology point of view because if you teach someone about the basics of a stock, and here's what the PE ratio is, and here's how shares outstanding work, you teach them these basic things. They're probably not going to learn as much practical skills about the stocks. They're not gonna learn as many practical skills about the stock market then if you taught them the history of the stock market, and here's how compound interest works, and here's the value of long-term investing. Those are the kinds of things that I think are valuable to teach people, but we often don't worry. They're not teaching people at all or we're teaching them the wrong thing. Watson: Absolutely. I think that's a great note to start wrapping up on. Before we tell listeners how to connect with you and you issue a personal challenge to the audience, is there anything that I didn't give you a chance to say, Morgan? Morgan Housel: No. I really only have a few things that I write about anyways, getting back to what we talked about. So, there are only a few points. One thing that I think is important in investing, and this might seem obvious, but a lot of people, I think overlook it, is that to get ahead in investing, you have to either do something that other people can't or do something that other people are not willing to do. It has to be one of those two things. That's how you compete because there are so many competitors out there with you and investing. Hedge funds and banks and mutual funds that you are effectively competing against. If you want to get ahead of them, you have to either be smarter than them or do something that they're not willing to do. To say that you're going to be smarter than everyone else out there, is a pretty big stretch. That's the odds that you will be smarter than everyone else, then the collective wisdom of all of their investors is pretty low. Where I think investors, most investors can find an edge is by doing something that other people are not willing to do. The biggest thing they can do with that is take a longer view of investing than most people will. The overwhelming majority of professional investors are really focused on about a 3 to 12 month view of the markets. If you, as an investor can just lengthen that and say, you're only going to be concerned with what the market does over the next 5 or 10 years, then you have a very powerful edge over the competition. It's not that other investors can't take that view, it's that they're not willing to do it because they have these pressures in their job that forced them to focus on the next 90 days or the next 6 months. If you're willing to overlook that and really be a long-term investor, that's where I think investors can find the biggest edge over their competitors. Watson: I like it. Morgan, thank you so much for coming on the show. If people want to connect with you, learn more about you, read some of your writing, where is the best place to find you in the digital world? Morgan Housel: Yeah, the best place is probably on Twitter. My handle is @tmfhousel. That's my Twitter handle. That's where I spend half of my day. It's probably the best way to get a hold of me. Watson: Cool. That will be linked to in the show notes as always at goingdeepwithaaron.com/podcast. We will wrap things up by giving Morgan the mic one last time to issue a personal challenge. Morgan Housel: My personal challenge, it's difficult to do, but I think it's the best way to learn is to go out of your way to read things that you know you're going to disagree with. There's so much confirmation bias in investing because there's so much financial content out there that you can find data and information and opinions on virtually anything you want to. When people start with belief about where the stock market's going next, or how they feel about the economy, and then they go out and seek opinions that confirm those views, you're just doing yourself a giant disfavor. My challenge to people would be to think about how you feel about investing or politics or this year's election and different presidential candidates, and really challenge yourself to read views that you disagree with because that's how you learn. I think the best case scenario that I think you will often find with that is that if you can read different opinions with an open mind, you might say to yourself, ‘Oh, there's a point that I never thought of. I didn't think of it that way.’ Then, you've gained some knowledge. The worst case scenario is that you read those different views and then you still come to the opinion that your original views were correct. But, if you spend all of your day reading stuff, that confirms what you already believe, not only are you not gonna learn anything, but you start rolling down this dangerous path of just confirming what you already believe. This makes you much less open-minded and much less able to learn new things. Watson: Absolutely. I actually have a friend who is the master of playing the devil's advocate, so he does exactly what you said. He's very well read across both sides of the aisle, across all sorts of different views on things, and the way he exercises that is through arguing the opposite of it. If he finds out someone has a strong opinion in one direction, he'll just argue the opposite side because he knows that side and he understands it. Even if he doesn't necessarily feel that way, he'll flex that muscle that way. Truthfully, he is one of the most, no one's unbiased, but you know, not terribly biased, even-keeled people. I think that's great advice. Thank you so much for that, Morgan. We just went deep with Morgan Housel. I hope everyone out there has a great day.
Theresa Brown, BSN, RN, works as a clinical nurse in Pittsburgh and recently wrote a NYT best-selling book, The Shift: One Nurse, Twelve Hours, Four Patients' Lives.
Theresa received her BSN from the University of Pittsburgh, but before that earned, a PhD in English from the University of Chicago and taught at Tufts University. Her column "Bedside" has appeared on the New York Times op-ed page as well as on the Times blog “Opinionator” and she is a frequent contributor to the New York Times. Previously she wrote for the New York Times blog “Well." Her writing has also appeared on CNN.com, and in The American Journal of Nursing and the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. She is an Advisory Board Member of the Center for Health Media and Policy at the Bellevue School of Nursing at Hunter College, and a participant in two different Robert Wood Johnson initiatives: "Flip the Clinic" and "The Power of Narrative." Her first book Critical Care: A New Nurse Faces Death, Life, and Everything in Between has been adopted as a textbook in Schools of Nursing across the country. Theresa lectures nationally on issues related to nursing, health care, and end of life. Her clinical work has been in medical oncology, hospice, and palliative care. Becoming a mom led Theresa to leave academia and pursue nursing. It is a career change she has never regretted. Theresa’s Challenge; Spend 30 minutes reading one poem per week. Theresa’s Books Critical Care:A New Nurse Faces Death, Life, and Everything in Between The Shift: One Nurse, Twelve Hours, Four Patients' Lives Connect with Theresa Website This episode of Going Deep with Aaron Watson is brought to you by the Ultimate Athlete Project. UAP is founded on helping athletes get results through well-developed workout plans that relieve you of the need to research effective workouts or worry about your workouts becoming boring. Check out a free core workout and learn more about what regular users are saying about the program.
Ever wondered what the path to being an Amazon #1 bestseller looks like? Meet Taylor Pearson.
Taylor taught himself Portuguese while working as a freelance Spanish interpreter, then bought a one-way plane ticket to Brazil to teach English. Between teaching classes, he played semi-pro football and built a profitable publishing business selling advertising to kitchen furniture manufacturers. He cold-called marketing agencies using my small kitchen furniture publishing business to get a job. Went from intern to lead project manager in less than six months at the leading digital marketing agency in Memphis. While there, he managed accounts for international manufacturing brands and higher education institutions. He left that to join the Tropical MBA team, a top 25 iTunes podcast and 10k+ subscriber blog. There he assisted in event planning and community management for The Dynamite Circle, a private mastermind forum of over 1000 of the web’s top location independent entrepreneurs. He also managed the online marketing and sales for a portfolio of 7-figure eCommerce businesses in the hospitality industry, primarily the Portable Bar Company, which grew over 527%. Then, he ran sales and product development for a valet parking software startup, selling into enterprise parking operators while managing product development and strategy. Now, he primarily writes on his blog and consults with authors, entrepreneurs and CEOs about how to find clarity and confidence in their businesses, expand their marketing through thought leadership and scale their internal business systems. Taylor’s Challenge; Publish something publicly this week and share it on social media. You should read Taylor’s Book, The End of Jobs. Book Recommendations The War of Art by Steven Pressfield Bird by Bird by Anne Lamont Connect with Taylor Website email; taylor@taylorpearson.me |
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